Rhi. (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
rhivolution) wrote2010-06-07 10:19 pm
rhivolution) wrote2010-06-07 10:19 pm
Entry tags:
so fucking special: mental illness panel ftw.
A brief note first: in light of what shit just went down as regards the topic of unsafe, I'm...just gonna pass on making a whole other post. Should you want to know what I would have said, antarcticlust sums it up well in her first two paragraphs here. Namely, being uncomfortable is important, because it means for once we (we = me + other white people) aren't just coasting on by, letting privilege protect us.
I probably would have been a bit less kind, though. I'm an angry person.
Now, to the rest of the post...a few notes from the Mad Seers, Holy Fools, and God–Touched panel at WisCon 34.
Let me say first that this panel seriously touched me and made me think, probably so much so that I bloody neglected to take down who necessarily said what or may have gotten that wrong in my frantic writing. I apologise to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
onceupon, revena, upstart_crow, and suzych for that. If anyone could provide further info or better notes, I'd be much obliged. My unspoken notes are in italics.
Main point of discussion: Are there accurate representations of our own experience (of mental illness) in SFF?
Suzy: Looking into how these tropes of mental illness (seer, fool, god-touched) have been used in the past.
- Sturgeon's More than Human (50s); character is thought to be mentally ill by his doctor, but is actually part of a telepathic gestalt, missing the rest of his group.
Rhi: I thought of LeGuin's The Lathe of Heaven here.
- Shakespeare and the classics come up as well.
Robyn: You can't separate literary ideas from how they affect reality. (We think and believe people are certain ways because we understand them through media.)
Robyn: The ever delightful consent issues for the mentally ill--the problems in Firefly/Serenity fandom of believing River can't consent because she's crazy.
- General consensus was 'of course she can.'
We never see a 'functional' person with mental illness. This is possibly because producers feel mental illnesses must be shown explicitly. There are people who are functional in their societies but not in a normative way.
Robyn: There is a spectrum of 'functionality'.
Audience: 'Functional' is a problematic term and ableist.
- Panel and audience acknowledge this.
The Rotund and Robyn discuss being bipolar and characters that have 'functional' periods and 'fallow' periods as people have in Atwood's Onyx and Crake, where it is normative.
- And Miles Vorkosigan, believed to be a fairly accurate representation of the bipolar experience.
- Though Bujold is not exactly exempt from wackness; while one could argue that Mark Vorkosigan is an example of a 'functioning' person with mental illness, his illness and characterization is problematic.
Audience: mentions the ace![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
access_fandom.
There are issues of cultural shame as regards mental illness.
JoSelle: Some works do have characters where their disability is not their defining attribute.
- Laurie R. King apparently does this well.
Discussion of the Icarus Project and the whole 'being mentally ill makes us Special and we should embrace it' idea (a la 'god-touched').
- panel generally don't buy this mindset--it may work for some, but not as a rule
The Rotund: While it can be good to be the seer or something, for some of us it's hard to feel good without having a schedule and/or a 9-to-5 job.
JoSelle: Society's structured against us.
Audience Member: Daughter once, while in breakdown, exclaimed 'I don't want to be so fucking special!' (re: Icarus etc.)
So who is doing it right?
- Elizabeth Moon, The Speed of Dark (autism and ASD)
- Nia Calhoun, The Phoenix Dance (bipolar)
- Matt Ruff, Set This House in Order (MPD) - can be problematic?
- I noted here or at some other point the god-spoken in OSC's Xenocide--a good portrayal of OCD on an experience and emotional level, but with the frustrating 'they were made this way to hobble them' trope. Not to mention Card's myriad of other issues.
A question: what is 'correct' if everyone's viewpoint and mental state is different?
- inherent psychophobia of society
The issue of the reliable narrator.
- The Rotund and Robyn talk about 'gaslighting' in bipolar disorder--being told, insistently, that your perceptions are wrong. It isn't helpful.
- This is true outside of bipolar disorder too, just seems to be a common concept there. I did not have a name for it!
- JoSelle notes that her therapist has a good method for talking to someone without gaslighting: accept the reality of their reactions, but suggest (not insist on) the reality or the alternative view.
- Lying to yourself or lying in your diary--we can still lie to ourselves.
- Things are difficult for those of us with no real experience of being normatively 'sane'.
PTSD
- True Blood - doin it rite, esp. with Terry, from the start.
- Doctor Who? I don't know. It's very awkward and sporadic. I...need to do some more reading before I get into it in an RP context again, as I think I may have messed up a bit.
- Funny how we don't write about what happens to people after epic quests, surely they might need some help. Like Frodo. Or Sam even more so. Not to mention other issues they may have developed besides PTSD.
- Batman is that frustrating trope of dooooom. Remember that things 'can be cool as well as wrong' (JoSelle, The Rotund?).
There is a continuum: everyone is ill and everyone is sane in some way.
- Your lived experience is real. This is important to remember.
- Mentally ill people can have bad days (non-illness) too and not be 'breaking down'.
Issues of productivity and laziness which I identified with so bloody much zomg. Issues of disability and defining self as a person with a disability, feeling 'not sick enough'.
Doin it rite: Cat Valente, Palimpsest.
Final question: would you want to be cured?
- Panel doesn't think so--formative part of identity.
- Need for a supportive culture.
- Cure should be a personal choice, not a societal one (rather linking into this post bymegwrites that I've seen around today).
- Note also: Greg Bear's books Queen of Angels, Slant, portraying an America where everyone must meet a certain standard of sanity, sanity leading to class status, job access, agency. Therapy is provided, but people with intractable problems and those who opt out are disenfranchised.
-----
All I can really say is my people. Seriously, the sense this whole damn thing made to this person with OCD...I just don't even. I have more to say about what I got out of this, but that may have to wait until tomorrow, as I am beat...yay for medication fatigue.
There may be a rant about how OCD isn't taken seriously. Stay tuned.
ETA: If you want to fill in the blanks and expand upon things that I didn't, check outsophy's panel report.
antarcticlust sums it up well in her first two paragraphs here. Namely, being uncomfortable is important, because it means for once we (we = me + other white people) aren't just coasting on by, letting privilege protect us.I probably would have been a bit less kind, though. I'm an angry person.
Now, to the rest of the post...a few notes from the Mad Seers, Holy Fools, and God–Touched panel at WisCon 34.
Let me say first that this panel seriously touched me and made me think, probably so much so that I bloody neglected to take down who necessarily said what or may have gotten that wrong in my frantic writing. I apologise to
onceupon, revena, upstart_crow, and suzych for that. If anyone could provide further info or better notes, I'd be much obliged. My unspoken notes are in italics.Main point of discussion: Are there accurate representations of our own experience (of mental illness) in SFF?
Suzy: Looking into how these tropes of mental illness (seer, fool, god-touched) have been used in the past.
- Sturgeon's More than Human (50s); character is thought to be mentally ill by his doctor, but is actually part of a telepathic gestalt, missing the rest of his group.
Rhi: I thought of LeGuin's The Lathe of Heaven here.
- Shakespeare and the classics come up as well.
Robyn: You can't separate literary ideas from how they affect reality. (We think and believe people are certain ways because we understand them through media.)
Robyn: The ever delightful consent issues for the mentally ill--the problems in Firefly/Serenity fandom of believing River can't consent because she's crazy.
- General consensus was 'of course she can.'
We never see a 'functional' person with mental illness. This is possibly because producers feel mental illnesses must be shown explicitly. There are people who are functional in their societies but not in a normative way.
Robyn: There is a spectrum of 'functionality'.
Audience: 'Functional' is a problematic term and ableist.
- Panel and audience acknowledge this.
The Rotund and Robyn discuss being bipolar and characters that have 'functional' periods and 'fallow' periods as people have in Atwood's Onyx and Crake, where it is normative.
- And Miles Vorkosigan, believed to be a fairly accurate representation of the bipolar experience.
- Though Bujold is not exactly exempt from wackness; while one could argue that Mark Vorkosigan is an example of a 'functioning' person with mental illness, his illness and characterization is problematic.
Audience: mentions the ace
access_fandom.There are issues of cultural shame as regards mental illness.
JoSelle: Some works do have characters where their disability is not their defining attribute.
- Laurie R. King apparently does this well.
Discussion of the Icarus Project and the whole 'being mentally ill makes us Special and we should embrace it' idea (a la 'god-touched').
- panel generally don't buy this mindset--it may work for some, but not as a rule
The Rotund: While it can be good to be the seer or something, for some of us it's hard to feel good without having a schedule and/or a 9-to-5 job.
JoSelle: Society's structured against us.
Audience Member: Daughter once, while in breakdown, exclaimed 'I don't want to be so fucking special!' (re: Icarus etc.)
So who is doing it right?
- Elizabeth Moon, The Speed of Dark (autism and ASD)
- Nia Calhoun, The Phoenix Dance (bipolar)
- Matt Ruff, Set This House in Order (MPD) - can be problematic?
- I noted here or at some other point the god-spoken in OSC's Xenocide--a good portrayal of OCD on an experience and emotional level, but with the frustrating 'they were made this way to hobble them' trope. Not to mention Card's myriad of other issues.
A question: what is 'correct' if everyone's viewpoint and mental state is different?
- inherent psychophobia of society
The issue of the reliable narrator.
- The Rotund and Robyn talk about 'gaslighting' in bipolar disorder--being told, insistently, that your perceptions are wrong. It isn't helpful.
- This is true outside of bipolar disorder too, just seems to be a common concept there. I did not have a name for it!
- JoSelle notes that her therapist has a good method for talking to someone without gaslighting: accept the reality of their reactions, but suggest (not insist on) the reality or the alternative view.
- Lying to yourself or lying in your diary--we can still lie to ourselves.
- Things are difficult for those of us with no real experience of being normatively 'sane'.
PTSD
- True Blood - doin it rite, esp. with Terry, from the start.
- Doctor Who? I don't know. It's very awkward and sporadic. I...need to do some more reading before I get into it in an RP context again, as I think I may have messed up a bit.
- Funny how we don't write about what happens to people after epic quests, surely they might need some help. Like Frodo. Or Sam even more so. Not to mention other issues they may have developed besides PTSD.
- Batman is that frustrating trope of dooooom. Remember that things 'can be cool as well as wrong' (JoSelle, The Rotund?).
There is a continuum: everyone is ill and everyone is sane in some way.
- Your lived experience is real. This is important to remember.
- Mentally ill people can have bad days (non-illness) too and not be 'breaking down'.
Issues of productivity and laziness which I identified with so bloody much zomg. Issues of disability and defining self as a person with a disability, feeling 'not sick enough'.
Doin it rite: Cat Valente, Palimpsest.
Final question: would you want to be cured?
- Panel doesn't think so--formative part of identity.
- Need for a supportive culture.
- Cure should be a personal choice, not a societal one (rather linking into this post by
megwrites that I've seen around today).- Note also: Greg Bear's books Queen of Angels, Slant, portraying an America where everyone must meet a certain standard of sanity, sanity leading to class status, job access, agency. Therapy is provided, but people with intractable problems and those who opt out are disenfranchised.
-----
All I can really say is my people. Seriously, the sense this whole damn thing made to this person with OCD...I just don't even. I have more to say about what I got out of this, but that may have to wait until tomorrow, as I am beat...yay for medication fatigue.
There may be a rant about how OCD isn't taken seriously. Stay tuned.
ETA: If you want to fill in the blanks and expand upon things that I didn't, check out
sophy's panel report.
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